Starting issues Gen 1 Tuono

Hi guys,

It's been ages since I posted in the forum, but I do browse regularly.

I know that there are numerous threads covering various starting issues, however I am confused as to what is relevant
to my specific problem.

I have had my T(Gen1 on a 53 plate) on an optimate 3 all through the winter period.

I started her up about 2 weeks ago and she started on the 1st prod of the button, and ran like a dream.

Now she won't start.
Battery indicates 12v and drops to 10.9v when the starter is pressed.
Bike turns over without any hesitation.
Fuel pump is heard to prime when key is turned?
There is a smell of petrol after a few attempts.

This makes me feel it is an electrical problem. But this is where my confusion comes in,
accordind to various threads it could be either:

1. Bad battery
2. Duff ECU
3. HT coils / leads (plugs are 9mths old)

Any help would be appreciated

Gray

Beg/steal/borrow another battery,...sounds like you have a cell gone down.

Cheers Keith,

Because she started 1st prod of the button the last time, and I put the battery back on the Optimate, as usual, I didn't think it would be the battery, I thought that something else had/was breaking down.

I have re-read all the information on the Forum, and there seemed to be a significant amount of cases that can probably be put down to simply flooding the bike.

I have left the bike for three days now, so I went out to my garage to try again.

The battery was showing a full charge, and indicated 13.5v on the dash. Checked for fuel in the tank, ok.
Choke on about 3/4, hands off throttle, hit the start button.
After 3 or 4 spins she coughs into life but only on 1 pot at first, then on 2 pots, running a bit rough for about a minute,
once she warmed up a bit everything was running as I am used to.

I ran the bike for another 15 mins, and shut her down as normal. I will put the battery back on the Optimate later and leave it overnight.
I will check her over tomorrow morning and I will post again with the results.

Cheers
Gray

Sounds exactly like what I had. Started ok first few times but later wouldn't start. Used a 3 stage charger to top up over night and it started, but only just. Didn't start a second time. Voltages were same as yours.

My battery was knackered. Replaced with Motobatt about a month ago and works like a dream with much more healthy 12V while starting and no faffing with the charger.

Have you got an AGM or gel battery? - these don't like Optimates I've learned.

Hermanji,

I have an original battery as supplied with a new bike. I have had the bike for two years and have always used the Optimate to trickle charge.
I have just been out to the garage to check the battery out. With the bike now off the charger, the dash showed 12.6v
I started her up properly (no throttle) and she started on the 1st prod of the button. The dash was now indicating 13.7v which tells me that the charging circuit is working properly.

I think that I have just been caught out by incorrect starting routine.

I will however be very mindful of the possibility of a failing battery, I will monitor the battery condition, and keep my eyes peeled for any indication of failure.

Cheers
Gray

When u say "correct starting procedure", what where you doing wrong?

I developed a habit of applying a twist of the throttle before hitting the starter button when I had my old FireStorm.

I know that I did that the other day - (old habit and all that)

The ape is very particular to being treated correctly, and I just fell into the trap of being a bit sloppy.

Yeah, don't touch that throttle LOL I learned that too

Final update on this;

Bike started 1st prod of the button again, and ran like a dream.

Won't happen again.

Cheers

Gray :roost

Great news

hermanji said:

Have you got an AGM or gel battery? - these don't like Optimates I've learned.

Click to expand...

Interdasting.....my agm has been on an optimate for 4 years now....and fires up perfick.
About 70% of batteries fitted are gel these days, and they have no issues with optimates.
You don't mean lithium by any chance do you?

Hey... what do you know... but just had exactly the same experience...

Except, I set choke control to 'full on' and didn't touch the throttle. Battery was 100% charged. On first touch of the starter bike gave one cough, then turned without any sign off life + smell of fuel. Left bike in sun and recharged battery, and bike fired up sweet 4hrs later.

Same scenario today, except weather a bit colder and bike wouldn't start 2nd attempt 4hrs later.

Gray, all,

Is it best not to use full choke? I note Grey only used 3/4's.

I was told by seller battery was new in Nov 2014. Voltage seems OK.

I'll double check grey/white connector and maybe end up upgrading battery to the TTZ14SBS unit shortly, albeit current 12V std unit turns bike over with ease and fully charged ... so scratching my head at the mo.

PS: I note feedback elsewhere that std 50Amp Starter solenoid can cause poor starting. Can anyone explain, why, assuming engine turns over strong?
- I can understand the problem if it burns out, or engine not cranking strongly.

Paul,
I note that your bike is a 2004 Gen1 Fighter. ...mine is a 2003 Gen1 Fighter, so the starter solenoids should be the same.
I have looked on the AF1 parts list and the same part no. is shown on the American site as the 150Amp unit. So according to that, ours should be a 150Amp unit. I will check mine out tomorrow and let you know.
Did you mean that there "was" a smell of fuel?? I couldn't work it out from your post.

If it turns over but doesn't start and there is no smell of fuel, I would suspect that it is a fuel issue.
If it turns over but doesn't start and there is a smell of fuel, then it could be a flooding issue. Or you may have no spark.

I use about 3/4 "choke" it depends on the temp of bike & weather.
Check the tension/slack in throttle and "choke" cable.
Check for sparks.
Check for fuel.

Good luck :thumbup
Gray

Thanks Gray,

I also had the impression our year models had the 150A solenoid. Much appreciate your vertification though. From Keith B's, and other posts, the 50A unit is only a problem when it burns out, and not a contributor to starting problems as describe.

Yes, there 'was' a smell of fuel on every occasion (sorry for the ambiguity!), so the fuel supply is fine. I suspect flooding is the issue, either due to too much choke, or some mystery (unless std battery fully charged, still presents a problem due to insufficient power and therefore volts drop, maybe compounded by poor connector condition, but I need to double check the connectors. Will also check cable slack and if still unsuccessful spark is present.

Amazing a fuel injected bike can be so finicky at cold starting, and flood within 2 second of pressing starter button...but glad to know the common causes are well established.

I note the 220 CCA 12V 'Powerline' batteries can be had for £36 + postage. Anyone had any experience of these?

Paul.,
It is my suspicion that a lot of the T's "battery & associated electrical (starting) issues" are compounded by people who, for whatever reason, manage to flood the cylinders, and then continue to "flog a dead horse". This then stresses the starter solenoid & battery etc.

If a T is flooded and will not start after 5 or 6 attempts, then it will not start until the fuel has dissipated sufficiently.

This can only be achieved by removing the plugs for a short period, or if you have the time, leaving the bike for 24hrs and starting the procedure again. If the bike still doesn't start (don't re-flood), wait for another 24hrs. After my initial flooding, it took 3 or 4 days to get her started......since then no problems at all.

Once you have got her running again, if you haven't had the tbs & co setup properly, I would recommend that you get this done as it balances the two cylinders and I'm sure that this must help with efficient starting.

Good luck
Gray

Gray,
- Appreciated. I plan to get carbs balance checked at next service, but unbalanced carbs cause a snatchy engine at low revs, and mine pulls smooth from 3k up, without any problem.

After my initial flooding, it took 3 or 4 days to get her started......since then no problems at all.

Click to expand...

- Wow... that long. Like you say, I stop trying after 4 or 5 attempts max... which is long enough to smell unburnt fuel from the exhaust.
- Last time mine failed to start I used a heat gun (with care!!) down exhaust and also inlet ducts, to dry cylinders (and help prevent petrol washing the oil of the bores!), and got bike started after 4hr gap. However, problem 'seems' more fundamental than flooding now.

Replaced 6yr old Yuasa YTX12-BS (180CCA, 10AH) with new Varta TTZ14S-BS (£49 inc postage, 230CCA 11AH - used 10mm camping mat foam pad to fill void below battery as this is shorter than original). Left bike 48hrs since last start attempt. Engine still turns over nice and strong, as with previous battery... but not the slightest attempt to fire.

All cables work fine, including cold start and throttle play.

I will check plugs are sparking (with HT cable tester) as plugs were only replaced 4 months ago + related connectors at next opportunity.

Incidentally, checked Starter Solenoid, and it's rated at 50Amp... so will upgrade, but evidently working fine as engine turns over strong, and looks original (in which case it's lasted 22k miles so far!)

So... still scratching head at mo...:dunno

Paul D said:

Gray

Incidentally, checked Starter Solenoid, and it's rated at 50Amp... so will upgrade, but evidently working fine as engine turns over strong, and looks original (in which case it's lasted 22k miles so far!)

Click to expand...

The Aprilia part no.on the AF1 site definitely shows it as a 150A however I suspect that as Aprilia upgraded the solenoid for later models then that is the details that show up on the current parts list. Like you mine still works perfectly, but I will get an upgraded solenoid as a spare. I will have a think about the battery tho'.......

Good luck and keep me posted please

Gray

Just ordered 150Amp replacement solenoid from UK bike parts supplier here, by way of upgrade - £13.50 in p&p.

Starter Solenoid Relay For The Aprilia RSV Tuono 1000 2002 - 2006 | eBay


Re..

The Aprilia part no.on the AF1 site definitely shows it as a 150A however I suspect that as Aprilia upgraded the solenoid for later models then that is the details that show up on the current parts list.

Click to expand...

Word on the street is Aprilia upgraded for all bikes after 2004 (mines 2003 model, registered 2004), so they only sell the 150A units now.

Paul,

Cheers mate :cheers

Gray

PS: Just a cautionary note... I just heard the cheap Chinese starter solenoids have been know to short.. .turning engine over without key in ignition! Also, they can catch fire..! The eBay link provided above is supposed to be a 'quality Malaysian' unit... and definitely not Chinese!

PPS: Just spoke with Griff (Aprillia Performance Tamworth)... he recons:
- my bike probably just needs a tune up, incl. throttle bodies set up.
- disconnect 3 wire white connector to disconnect fuel pump, and turn engine over to clear any flooding.
- reconnect connectors, close 'choke' control, wind throttle open and hit starter...

Will give that a shot in the morning...