Gilo has MIVV's on his and is running them with baffles in and MAP2. Said it runs fine without the power commander. Lots do have PC's though but not essential if it runs ok. Try it and see
This is a very complicated, very easy concept to comprehend. Your dealer does not have a clue about air flow and telemetry. If you have a cold engine in the morning, how does the proper fuel start the bike? If you used a choke, you could stall the engine by not following how fast the heat builds and changes that choke to open sooner than you could move it from stalling it; giving it way too [much is how much] or way too little choke. Get that move?
How fast does the ape start in the morning? Touch the throttle and she is up and idling from a cold start, never stalls with choke in play. If we take this concept now, slow it down to a dead stop... We have no mufflers on at all. We start the bike dead cold. Did the engine need a muffler to start the bike? No. Does the bike have telemetry in the pipe somewhere? Yes. Did the bike need a pipe to start? No. Did it need the 02 sensor to know it sniffs not a speck of fuel so it must turn the spigot up [so much], because it sent in that input? Yes. Did that morning map show up all ready, cold day,key on, we have our input ready? Yes... Obviously, mr. dealer. :lol
Did not the other sensors send in their cold start input? Yes. Again, do we need a muffler to start the engine? No. If we repeated the process warm, say we warmed the bike up, pulled the pipes off, would the 02 know there is no gas, we start the bike hot now? Yes, it will start right up. So then if I have my telemetry to tell me what temp the radiator water is, the air outside temp, the altitude change, the throttle's position as in how much volume is being pulled on that sensor; as in a vacuum change; I do not think I need a PC to run a muffler'd pipe anyway.
I come from the open loop world and my AFR meter tells the dealer where to take that theory. Run that pipe without a PC. Watch your water temp remain the same. Keep an eye on the water for any pipe change. You'll see the telemetry could care less what heads out that exhaust port. That intake is the flow meter, not less back pressure per say.
We run map2, we run a slightly rich set. Why? So you gain more (token) HP in an ever so slight change. Know your AFRatio to tell that dealer he knows squat about FI/AFR.
Take it for WOT/WATT it's worth if you want to see that AFR meter do some nasty-nasty fall on it's face torque. Oh, you get the smoother torque and all that. But to have some extra-extra lean is mean, carry the front wheel across the intersection, you run map1 open pipe(s). Your choice gutting one baff or both. If my bike carries the wheel, I see no water begin to boil over, I have a lean running bike? I don't think so.
Why is the ZX-14 open loop? To tune with a piggy and pipe. Open loop is the tune side. Closed loop is to counter your move back to 14.7 psi (AFR), or the ideal number. With the PC, you chase a 12/13 AFR. I more chase 15/16 for cruising with air screws, no PC needed. Leaner than the gov issue or how the bike comes out of the crate all stock. Does eyesore spank some tune all stock? Like ****** made spaghetti sauce, it sure does smell and run dangerously rotten pop'inn. :yes
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As per Bay above.
I too recently got some Mivv's fitted and had the local garage switch it to MAP2.
They recommended a powercommander, as it was running slightly lean through midrange - but did advise it wasn't a major issue and wouldn't cause problems.
I may get a Pc fitted but it's not an urgent thing, **** I don't want to burn any more fuel than it does already, ffs.
I too recently got some Mivv's fitted and had the local garage switch it to MAP2.
They recommended a powercommander, as it was running slightly lean through midrange - but did advise it wasn't a major issue and wouldn't cause problems.
I may get a Pc fitted but it's not an urgent thing, **** I don't want to burn any more fuel than it does already, ffs.
Joined Apr 2011
40 Posts | 0+
Hastings, East Sussex
Bit baffled about 2knows reply.....!
Anyways up, I have slip on Ackro's with no baffles on a Gen II with map 2 and no power commander and it runs a peach.
Even better with 15/42 lowered gearing that means I'm not having that low-rev snatch problem when running slow through town.
Anyways up, I have slip on Ackro's with no baffles on a Gen II with map 2 and no power commander and it runs a peach.
Even better with 15/42 lowered gearing that means I'm not having that low-rev snatch problem when running slow through town.
Baffled... Funny. I don't find it at all funny, at dealer level, the answers that come out of what should be so called, 'experts.' I did explain that if you do read my posts, I will use your abstracts against you if it does not follow FI/14.7psi. This separates the more air thinkers from the same air absoluters. This bike works one way and one way only. So simple is the absolute that if you turn the key on it fires off. Turn the key off it stops running. If you can comprehend that, then you can comprehend how simple the computer bike is. You can laugh at anyone coming up telling you that you need some pig for a pipe. Baffle them wit questions they cannot bring in any other answer... I brought in my 14.7 number. I have yet to hear someone else bring in their absolute number and explain away their theory. I'll run rings around them is open to page so and so.
And it is so proof-positive, that no one is running a PC with open pipe. With that said,are there bikes here that are burned up waiting for pistons they changed a pipe to an open one? No. So, shouldn't that combo of combos that you bring forward show you something? Like it answered that bike shops answer another way. You were told gibbly gobble is you think I got it twisted up... Yeah right.
Are there pipes with pig and some without a pig wired to it? I believe yes. And did the sprocket send the rpm snatch past that dangerous kind of recall we should be getting for that specific snatch? Yes, IMO. This is a dangerous pop/stalling pile of a map scheduling. It needs to be cleaned up... Via air screw assist is my chase at this one glitch... Are you listening Ape? I don't think so after this one sat on the floor for how may years? See my point, Aprilia North Amercia?
And why are you baffled if I am explaining the telemetry has you covered on the intake side... Here you are in that, no-PC needed it runs so peachy show me both your burnt pistons. :lol:lol
And are you listening Aprilia the crap of a tune you place your customers in? Shame on your map programmers/throttle pointshit moves outhe crate! :dunno
Well I will ask the mechanic when it goes in for its first service to see if he has the same opinion as the dealer...
DAVE, why get upset over some high tech, complex crap I cannot explain in a sentence or two. To formulate that question as if I need a PC, you need to follow the rules of the computer bike. I would not set myself on fire over a tune up, nor blow myself up about setting an air screw in either direction. No, I will not place myself in a screwball kind of atmosphere; if I only remembered my basic physics they tried to explain in grammar school.
You need to resurrect:
1. Fuel-Spark-Compression.
2. The 1Atmo fundamental move it makes every time on the in-valve close.
3. A difference is a speed event change into the engine, not more air. When you see that telemetry has to calculate that one number to make it all work in the absolute, bring on that other number. Ask yourself; does it stop your theory cold. So says the factory shop manual, yes it does.
4th Variable; Your confusion to the [absolute] concept.
xengibez? You just invite that dealer principal and his back end crew to read up on this thread. Tell them it's open book too. No surprises. Get that owner to own up on explaining to his customers some false info out the back door or out of his own lips, I do not know? Makes the shop look here... Well, if you cannot answer this question, what makes you think they are going to chase that code and correct it? If they throw parts at it, waste your minutes, are there not other phantom loops that can trick that code setting? It sure can. And how do you chase it? Well, the book has so many basic variables and that is it. The rest is the tech to figure it out... Hit and miss = $$$ of time out of your wallet. It is usually one wire or one variable. Not a truck load of something happening... Usually.
DAVE... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thought Just read the first two sentences. See how many variables I have to bring in so as to thwart the fallacy? The half-truth? The false claims. Yes, it sure did sound like it to me. I can back up facts by the other posts here alone. You do not come up against me. I bring in the factory service manual speak; in too-too many words. This says, I won't get snowed on the service drive if I follow a basic concept. I'll know a tiny bit of tune and apply that number each time to that fallacy I hear until it rings sound. Show me the lean someone screams lean and I'll shout, Show Me!
Show me those scored pistons and boiled over radiator caps. Where are those threads changing pipe and air cleaner? I rest my case.
You need to resurrect:
1. Fuel-Spark-Compression.
2. The 1Atmo fundamental move it makes every time on the in-valve close.
3. A difference is a speed event change into the engine, not more air. When you see that telemetry has to calculate that one number to make it all work in the absolute, bring on that other number. Ask yourself; does it stop your theory cold. So says the factory shop manual, yes it does.
4th Variable; Your confusion to the [absolute] concept.
xengibez? You just invite that dealer principal and his back end crew to read up on this thread. Tell them it's open book too. No surprises. Get that owner to own up on explaining to his customers some false info out the back door or out of his own lips, I do not know? Makes the shop look here... Well, if you cannot answer this question, what makes you think they are going to chase that code and correct it? If they throw parts at it, waste your minutes, are there not other phantom loops that can trick that code setting? It sure can. And how do you chase it? Well, the book has so many basic variables and that is it. The rest is the tech to figure it out... Hit and miss = $$$ of time out of your wallet. It is usually one wire or one variable. Not a truck load of something happening... Usually.
DAVE... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thought Just read the first two sentences. See how many variables I have to bring in so as to thwart the fallacy? The half-truth? The false claims. Yes, it sure did sound like it to me. I can back up facts by the other posts here alone. You do not come up against me. I bring in the factory service manual speak; in too-too many words. This says, I won't get snowed on the service drive if I follow a basic concept. I'll know a tiny bit of tune and apply that number each time to that fallacy I hear until it rings sound. Show me the lean someone screams lean and I'll shout, Show Me!
Show me those scored pistons and boiled over radiator caps. Where are those threads changing pipe and air cleaner? I rest my case.
Joined Oct 2009
254 Posts | 1+
north manchester
its fine to run map 2 with the baffles out
sounds like the dealer just wants to sell you a power commander
i have done hundreds of them without a problem
sounds like the dealer just wants to sell you a power commander
i have done hundreds of them without a problem
Joined Apr 2011
40 Posts | 0+
Hastings, East Sussex
Does anyone have pictures of knackered pistons and overheating engines? I don't think the tune is so far out on either map to run so hot as to burn the pistons
Sorry 2know, your data may be superior and you may know your data, but no matter how many times I read your posts I'm not sure what your trying to say, apart from Aprilia did a bad job at setting up the bike, which is probably what they had to do to pass emission laws.
Maybe try again in simple terms....?
Joined Mar 2011
181 Posts | 1+
West Cumbria Marra!
This thread has put a smile on my face sitting here in the docs waiting room, bored of prostate leaflets and
dietry posters. 2know thanks for your insight dude, kinda got what your scientific approach suggests.
Prefer a rich burn myself, no need for a PC on open cans. Never used a PC on any of my last 5 bikes i've tuned via pipe n cogs. My other half, she runs an fz1 with p.c. Its a gas guzzler. At £1.40. A litre of unleaded thats too much money on fuel, and a p.c. Is £300+ then set up on top! Ride on map2 with non standard cans with baffles in or out.............simples.
dietry posters. 2know thanks for your insight dude, kinda got what your scientific approach suggests.
Prefer a rich burn myself, no need for a PC on open cans. Never used a PC on any of my last 5 bikes i've tuned via pipe n cogs. My other half, she runs an fz1 with p.c. Its a gas guzzler. At £1.40. A litre of unleaded thats too much money on fuel, and a p.c. Is £300+ then set up on top! Ride on map2 with non standard cans with baffles in or out.............simples.
Nice diagnosis. We are getting some answers narrowed down as to who said what about pipe vs. pipe to piston/heat/lean conditions.
Bandito sat reading with a smile on his face. I think all you read was the long and drawn out 'insight' as Bandito put it. You nailed each sentence practically. Told Aprilia where to get off on a stumble tune where you can remove that; emissions wise. Other emissions related bikes have no stalling/popping/stumble throughout the rpm, especially with an 02 sitting in the wings to correct any over level emissions? I think so. One guy or a team of programmersuck working the X to Y grid map making! I could get a monkey to radio click the map grid with better results.
I don't know how/where/watt to use as to how much to make the read easier. You covered about all of it. Bandito calls it, 'insight' and maybe it took a second read to find that insight... Which seems you seem pretty apt at it. I should change the writing formula? You see that 14.7 number change, so will my sentence structure... I'll really make it confusing.
Nope. I am hard core OE. I leave my bikes bone stock. Still have it. OK, I lied. I mod my bikes and all of a sudden, they are back to stock running so crisp, I took a lot of the videos down showing all those mods. She is one fast ripper. Smoothest bike I've ever ridden. Brakes so well, I have zip of any marks short of the original pads dragging on the rear disc. That video is up so as to prove I had a ha-ha with the back brake on eyesore some were complaining about.
Eyesore's back brake is a good hard pedal to keep the front wheel from flipping over. You just want to hop over the intersections, not show off and follow the sun's arc.
Eyesore's back brake is a good hard pedal to keep the front wheel from flipping over. You just want to hop over the intersections, not show off and follow the sun's arc.
Joined Mar 2011
181 Posts | 1+
West Cumbria Marra!
"Like ****** made spaghetti sauce, it sure does smell and run dangerously rotten pop'inn." :thumbup, love it 2know.
So critical thinking refers to higher-order thinking that questions assumptions. It is a way of deciding whether a claim is true, false, or sometimes true and sometimes false, or partly true and partly false. The concept is somewhat contested within the field of education due to the multiple possible meanings.........14.7psi (AFI) the meaning of Life the universe and everything Tuono. :yes
So critical thinking refers to higher-order thinking that questions assumptions. It is a way of deciding whether a claim is true, false, or sometimes true and sometimes false, or partly true and partly false. The concept is somewhat contested within the field of education due to the multiple possible meanings.........14.7psi (AFI) the meaning of Life the universe and everything Tuono. :yes
Critical Thinking 101:
1. Spark
2. Fuel
3. Compression
I introduce to you the absolute, no dispute... Truth be known... Or 2know how critical it is to get it right once it happens...
If I eliminate one variable of the 3, she will not run. Dispute it.
1. WATT will you replace spark with... Try to light a match and to time the spark @ 10,329 rpm? I didn't think so.
2. WOT will you replace the kinetic with... Puff up your cheeks, move the match out of the way, here comes some compression down the spark plug hole install plug?
3. What was that? I didn't think you had a replacement for the big-C. How about that fuel? Was that swashing in your mouth along with the cheek puckers?
I might asswellook stupid *** to talk stupid as well. Look, that is how I read someone. Is s/he going to baffle me with that sort of air rush as in follow that time difference of the same event? Isn't it more air into the cylinder event, s/he said? That critical thinking is to think... Here is a lap pool. I have the same swimmer shaved, smoothed out and about to take a lap from one end to the other... GO!
The next concept to think is if I waited a few months, let his hair grow out all over. Place street clothes on he/r... Take your mark! Do we see that air cleaner screen as the jeans we remove said fabric/screen? The hair acts as the second throttle plate [in some throttle bodies]? Toss those out. The rest of the clothes are removed so the port job is cleaned up. Give it the 5-degree angle cut, so the flow is more directed over a surface... Do we now see a concept of one number moving into the cylinder chamber at certain speeds? Still, that number somehow remains the same. It is so the telemetry stays within that same 0 to 5v window... Critically thinking, correct?
It goes something like that, DAVE. Find the facts that shut the engine off... Only 3 absolutes [to know]... And the world is yours.
Yes. I would like to order a spaghetti western. Shoot'em up another map, Aprilia of North America! Get that freak'inn recall campaign going! Where is my idle cable so I can slam on the brakes and not have the back wheel still chugg'inn me into a bumper! IDIOTS!
Throw a cable on the idle you wanna sell me another bike... Ape of NA! Here are my new leathers I'll have made just for eyesore. So I remember watt I am climbing over.
